SUMMARY KEYWORDS
listening, people, discipline, mediation, mediators, understand, person, life, conditions, brain, humanz mediate, Elizabeth, rewarded, feel, skill, conversation, talk, accept, fidget spinner
SPEAKERS
Elizabeth Franz & Joey Pinz
Podcast Link: YouTube
Joey Pinz
Elizabeth France, put a great conversation with an interesting, interesting woman listening, and mediation. Do we do well at listening? When you’re listening to somebody, do you empty, she talks about being an empty vessel, and just letting it come in, or are all too often. I know, I talked to people who aren’t listening, but are just waiting to talk. Or they keeps it. Right, and they’re not listening at all. They’re waiting to talk, just listening and being present in this, you know, in this western culture that we’re in where there’s, you know, lots of fast things happening, and clickbait and quick graphics and quick videos, you know, do we take the time to listen, and to be open to what, whoever we’re talking to, or communicating and speaking, or our friend or partner, or whoever it may be. And mediation is a wonderful tool that she offers where they listen, and they accept each other. They have these listening labs, where they bring people together and they one speaks and one listens. And she talks about,
you know, body posture, you know, where should your tongue be? When you’re listening? Where should your feet be? Should you be leaning forward? Do you accept what somebody’s saying? If you disagree with them? Is that enough? Some people that we know they’ll speak, and you’ll understand them. But you’ll say you just don’t. You just don’t agree. And they’ll repeat and they’ll repeat like you have to accept them.
Again, we understand we just don’t agree, is that wrong? You know, what do you do with those people in your life? Just a wonderful conversation about listening, and about mediation? With Elizabeth France. Thanks for listening. Hi, I’m Joey pins. People ask me, How did I lose 130 pounds? The quick answer is always discipline. I started my business wasn’t paying attention to my health, eating too much drinking too much sweets. My daughter was born. Next thing I know on pre diabetic hypertension, and knew something had to change discipline. I like many of you had faced many challenges in your career and your family life, your faith? How did you attack them? How did you approach them? How did you solve them? Hopefully, it all had to have some degree of discipline. I’m also asked how did you found and start a tech business that lasted over 25 years? Discipline? I was committed to it enjoy technology, didn’t enjoy some aspects of it, but knew it was necessary. Discipline, our podcast mission, how do we use discipline to better ourselves and society? Join me please, as I talk to interesting people, and discuss how they use discipline in their family in their passion in their careers, and how it helped them. Our podcast vision growth through learning from others, Joey pins, discipline conversations, it will be light. And serious. Join us please. Thank you for consideration. Elizabeth Franz, such a pleasure. So why is listening? not rewarded?
Elizabeth Franz
So great question. First, I would say the most obvious reason is that it’s not easily observable. Right? So speaking, I can hear you I can I have words, I have expressions, I have things to take in data to collect, or as listening is happening internally. It’s not visual, you don’t necessarily notice it’s happening. And I think the second reason is societal conditioning, which is the reason for a lot of things. And there’s this conditioning around we see speakers and actors and actresses and politicians and lawyers and all these sort of elevated fields, where they’re speaking, they’re kind of taking up space. And the people who don’t take up space and are not as visible, get forgotten. They’re unobservable. And again, we’re not getting rewarded for that behavior. If I listened well, I don’t necessarily get a trophy. But when I was on the speech team or the debate team or mock trial, there were awards. There were trophies, there was accolades. But if I was very good at listening, nothing happened.
Joey Pinz
Yeah, I get sometimes I get kind of complimented you’re a good listener, and I think to myself, that’s almost like being complimented being good father. I mean, you’re you’re a father, you’re supposed to be good, you know, so I just kind of assume Everybody should be a good listener. No, no, I listened to you, I listened to you speak, I listened to what? You know, you said in the podcast and some of your writings. And, you know, I’m leaning forward, I’m showing you that I have a pen, I know you like to kind of, you know, I have the pen down here, you can’t see it’s kind of Out of Frame I, I take notes, my knees, you like your knees, kind of you cross them. You talk about your body posture. Talk about that when listening?
Elizabeth Franz
Yeah. Yeah. So for me, I focus on listening to understand rather than listening to respond. So listening to respond is you’re talking, and I’m thinking about what I’m going to say next. And that’s the listening that we see most often. Right? Where you get complimented for being a good listener, if when you respond, you kind of tie the other person’s answer into what you said, or you seem like you’re on topic, because that’s observable listening, right. And then I think listening to understand is also observed in the same way. But it’s very different internal experience. So you know, right now I have my feet on the ground, my knees are open, my arms are open to you, I am sitting more back in my chair. So as I’ll put my neck back, I’m leaning into my mic, was just maybe changed in the digital age. But I’m seeing myself as an empty vessel ready to receive what you’re saying. And then once I’ve received that, I process it, you’ll see me kind of take a pause before I answer, and then I respond. So it’s a mindset in your posture, you can do that by like sitting back, like you’re ready to receive something, keeping your posture open. And then really, I like to think of myself as an empty vessel. I take everything that happened earlier in the day in my life, and I put it to my left, and I take everything that I have planned for the future and a scoop it out, and I put it on the right, I trust that they will both be there after this present moment that I’m sharing with you. And this present moment is what’s filling me up. And that requires sort of that emptying that opening and listening to understand instead of respond
all too often. I can tell when a person isn’t listening, they’re just waiting to speak. I guess they’re being polite by not interrupting. But you could tell they’re just not listening. And they’re just waiting to speak in you could sense it.
Elizabeth Franz
Yeah, and that’s a lot of how we see conversation go on TV and our family is in debate, our politicians, or celebrities are all kind of being rewarded. And we’re all waiting to hear what they have to say. But we’re not necessarily waiting for them to respond or take something in or hear some something because we’re not used to seeing that demonstrated. So as a mediator, what I’m doing is making that process that I’m going through that I’m listening verbal and reflecting it back to you. And then asking, is that what I heard you say? And that allows participants mediation, or even when you’re listening to someone to know you heard them, because you’re making verbal that receiving of what they’re saying. So what I tried to say next, and I’m not doing a great job demoing this in the interview, I’ll have to try to do it with your next question. But what I try to do is reflect back what I’ve heard first, and then after I get confirmation from my speaker that I really heard what they meant, then I respond. So it’s slowing it down. And adding that extra language and verbiage which you know, in American culture, which is just boom, boom, boom, as fast as possible. We’re not used to slowing the conversation down and adding all these extra words to make sure we understand each other.
Yeah, it’s very important. I know, sometimes I listen to some podcasts. By the way, there’s only 4 million that we need to choose from now. But I listen and whoever’s receiving the question I hear, like when they’re talking, you know, there’s just so you could just tell I’ll go back to that old point. Like when you’re speaking right there when you just spoke, I will case that I’m also kind of, I kind of, I don’t know what it is the Italian in me, I don’t know, I just have to I emote but sometimes when I hear when they’re doing that you could tell they’re just not listening. Going back to your other point about being an empty vessel. That’s just so important. You know, when you’re listening, the idea is be empty be present, you talk a lot about being present. And just let let the words let the emotions let the thoughts soak in to the emptiness pause and continue. Seems like such a simple formula, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth Franz
Um, so it sounds like you’re asking me about the formula and What it means to be an empty vessel? Is that right, Joe? Okay. So that was just demonstrating. I heard your question. I’ll also just go back before I answer that question, I’ll go back to what you were saying about the moves. And I actually like those, but they, they need to, if they’re, if they’re just the same generic. It’s like, you’re not really listening versus when you were talking. I was like, yeah, oh, um, you know, like, I kind of varied it. And my response was showing you that I was interested, I was giving you cues that what you were saying I was receiving, and those little like, nodding, you see me nodding a lot, or the little verbal tics, where you’re kind of making a sound can actually make your speaker feel very hurt. So the the second part, you were asking about this sort of simple formula, this emptying yourself. For me, it’s really inspired by the Dao De Jing and Taoism. And the idea of Wu Wei, which is the concept of not doing so there’s doing and then there’s non doing, and non doing is more in alignment with sort of Taoist philosophy and the Taoist approach to living life. And emptying myself is actually who away it’s not doing, I don’t have an agenda, I’m not doing anything. I’m simply present and in harmony with what is in front of me. So what you’re saying what you’re asking, I’m now becoming one with that, instead of what I think is the American western way of doing things, which is come in, have an objective, have what you want to say, and have that take up all the space. And so if we’re in a conversation, I’m in competition with you, to get what I have to say out, versus if I’m an empty vessel. If I’m not doing and I’m just being with you. I can receive what you say and respond to it in the moment, instead of trying to impose or force the agenda that I have.
It’s amazing. Well, you were saying that I took a deep breath. I actually, I took a deep breath to soak it in even more, you know to be to all too often we see on television, you mentioned politicians where these people are just digging into their points and there’s just, there’s just you know, I even if I’m kind of wrong, I’m not wrong, and it just digging in. And, you know, that’s not how it’s just the way it is, but it’s not an effective way to communicate. What’s the difference between listening and hearing?
Elizabeth Franz
Hmm. i It’s a great question. The difference between listening and hearing, I think they’re together. I think for me, hearing is more of a physical physics thing like okay, there are sound waves that go into my eardrum, my eardrum, I actually think hearing. So we have like the five senses, right sight, no smell, touch hearing. And I actually think, and I could be totally wrong, scientists should totally correct me. But it seems more like hearing is actually more like touch. Because it’s the sound waves going over the hairs in your eardrum. And that’s how your brain is processing sound, if I understand that correctly. So I think hearing is the physics the physical reaction that happens when the sound wave of your voice hits the eardrums in my head. And then I think listening is taking those signals and we translate it into language we translate it into, okay, what do I how do I want to respond? How am I going to take that in, and the the listening part of that can include what is often termed as active listening, where you’re actually making verbal what you heard. So, like you said, something, if I reflected back to you, you can confirm I heard you and then I can respond. If I don’t make it verbal. If I don’t confirm and check with you and reflect, then, I’m guessing and I have no confirmation from me that I heard you,
Joey Pinz
You know, as a young adolescent into my 50s now and I remember, you know, maybe the first or second girlfriend and I remember something that she said that I remember to this day, the perhaps the only positive thing from the relationship but nevertheless, an important one. You’re hearing me but you’re not listening.
Elizabeth Franz
Hmm, yeah. I I’ve definitely heard people say that, that you’re listening, but you’re not hearing me. And I think maybe this is where language doesn’t serve us as well. I think when I hear that I actually hear you’re hearing me physically, you’re listening like you’re not talking while I’m talking to you, but you’re not understanding and part of how you should So someone you understand is again, reflecting back what you heard them say. Right? So, you know, Joe, you you were probably sitting there letting her talk, you didn’t probably didn’t interrupt her. You probably were trying to understand her. But that understanding actually requires a little bit more back and forth, it takes slowing down the conversation and saying, I think I’m hearing you say this, is that right? Do I understand? And then allowing that person to confirm or correct you? And then trying again? Until you get Yes, you heard me?
Joey Pinz
I think that’s very accurate, and has the all too often I see. Well, I hear what you’re saying, that means I have to agree with you. So I’m going to retort, you know, I’m going to oppose that or I’m going, it gets combative when we’re just trying to just kind of communicate and just be present. And we need to get away from that as a society.
Elizabeth Franz
Yeah, I think that combativeness and that sort of metric of you only understand me if you agree with me, like, you know, we have lists, we have hearing, we have listening, we have understanding, we have agreeing or disagreeing, and I can understand you, and still not agree with you. And I’ve definitely had friendships where, you know, people will impose advice on on me or tell me their thoughts, and I’ll hear them, I’ll confirm, I’ll reflect, and then I won’t do what they advise me to do. And then they come back with you never listen, and I come back with. So help me understand what it would have looked like, for me to be listening. Like I asked a question, What do you mean? And they’re like, Well, you didn’t take my advice. And I Okay. I heard your advice. I understood the advice I listened, I heard you and I disagreed with that advice. That advice, I decided wasn’t right for me. And I think, again, this is where like, we just don’t talk about listening enough. We don’t have all these words, all these distinctions. So I think that’s where, you know, I reflected and asked a question, it sounds like you don’t feel I’m listening, what is listening look like to you? And then they say, Well, you didn’t take my advice. And I come back and say, well, listening to me, is I heard you, I understood the advice you gave me, I considered it. But agreeing with you is different to me than listening to you. And you know, that friend ended up stopping my friend because they wanted someone to take their advice and be a yes, person, they wanted the satisfaction of sort of forcing their ideas on someone else and having them taken. And when I didn’t comply, I was no longer an interesting person to impose on. And that was my boundary. And that’s also I think, not that one person’s fault. I think our culture, you know, America is, we’ve inherited a colonized country, right, we’ve inherited a colonized world, I think the death of the Queen recently has sort of brought that to light, that there are plenty of places in the world that are happy, she’s dead, because she’s a symbol of this violent colonization and the legacy of that we that we’ve inherited, I mean, even the jewel in her crown has not been returned from the lands that was taken from. And so if we’ve inherited a culture, society, English language communication, that is steeped in colonization, of course, we’re going to get people imposing themselves forcing there’s ideas wanting to compete and combat you. And this act of listening openly as an empty vessel without an agenda purely to understand what you’re saying, is very counterintuitive and countercultural to all the conditioning or receive in America.
Joey Pinz
What well settle is with, you know, what a kind of imposition and contract and commitment it is to have such friends that kind of I told you so friends that, you know, impose this, you know, advice that wasn’t welcome that wasn’t asked for and when not taken, you know, they get upset. We need to remove these people from our lives. The idea of friendship is to elevate each other. And I feel and, you know, oftentimes I’ve said to people, yeah, I hear you. I just don’t agree. No, no, no, you don’t understand. No, no, no, I understand. I just simply don’t agree. Your host listening labs. Tell me about though.
Elizabeth Franz
Yes, yeah. So one thing about what you said first for answer this question is yeah, you can say, I’m listening but I disagree with you. I think what you could add to that, that might have them not come back with you don’t understand is, is this what you’re saying? I heard this, this this and this is that what you’re saying, Am I understanding it? And if they say no, again, try again until they say yes, that’s it and then say, Okay, I understand what you’re saying, and this is what I think. Right. So not framing it as an immediate disagreement, and also making sure that they feel very heard and understood, because that tends to be the block. But that’s not something people have modeled for them skills we learn. And so we get stuck in these conversations where it you don’t understand me, you don’t understand me, and we just like run away and say, well, good riddens. And we don’t actually have to be in that position if we have those listening skills. So that ties into the listening lab, we have workshops, where we practice these listening skills. It’s a lab because we are not lecturing, we do not force people to passively listen at US droning on and on, our instructor will demonstrate the skill, explain how to do it, we set up an experiment very much like a lab, here are your lab instructions. Here’s the experiment, we put you in breakout rooms, or when we were in person into separate rooms, and you practice with a partner, we come back and we say, What did you notice? What did you observe? How did you feel, and we learn from each other’s lived experiences, and then we try the next skill. So it’s been something that I’ve done with companies with organizations, my favorite isn’t we’re working in community with people. And I think when they get the skills, they realize so much of the bout the barriers and the challenge to collaborating and working together. Isn’t that your team is full of bad apples, right? I think that’s the sort of liberal philosophy not Democrat or Republican, but like liberal versus deterministic philosophy, this idea of free will, you’re choosing to be a bad person, I’m imposing moral judgment, you are the problem, versus maybe there was a problem with our system that it didn’t teach us how to actually communicate and collaborate with each other. And then you have to ask, Why does our system not teach us that? Well, because who does it benefit that we are divided? Who does it benefit that we cannot understand each other? It certainly does not benefit you and me certainly doesn’t benefit the human race the species, it definitely benefits, the profit, the industries that are fighting for your attention, that are happy that you’re not voting collectively, that are happy that you’re not making decisions and collaborating together, because then they can continue getting away with destroying our planet and putting profit over people. And so our system is never going to teach you the tools to dismantle it. And one of those foundational tools that we’re teaching is listening.
Joey Pinz
In the lab, do you say when you pair people up, do you say you’ll speak and you’ll listen? Do you give them roles?
Elizabeth Franz
Yes, so they have speaker roles and listener roles, and then they switch. And then they’re able to debrief and talk about what that experience was like and what they noticed.
Joey Pinz
And in particular topic, what’s the duration?
Elizabeth Franz
Yeah, so we find that two hours is sort of the the length of time that people can do this actively. And then Everyone’s tired, the instructor doesn’t get better, they don’t get better. So we do two hour sessions, multiple modules, like we keep going as long as people want to keep going. And I think what we’re seeing is when you just kind of slow people down and have them have a chance to practice it, think about it and body it, communicate with each other about it, you get this deeper learning, where it’s something that they’re able to just use, right, so it’s not something that I have to like pull out my handout and read what it says or, you know, intellectually try to think what what it will we learn in class, it’s something that I’ve experienced, I’ve learned and it feels good, because your immediate reward is connection to another human, which we need as social creatures. And so because you had that experience of, whoa, I did this differently. I listened it differently than I ever have before. I got immediately rewarded with feeling connected to other human being that reward, doing that pattern over and over again, which is the classical conditioning. You end up embodying and in graining, that skill and you will always listen that way. It’s not something that you just do once in class perfectly and then leave. It’s a lab where that experimentation that practice turns into a way of life.
Joey Pinz
And do people come to you saying I’m not a good listener? And I need help with it? What are the candidates like?
I wish I think there’s a lot of ego people are like, I don’t need this. I’m a great listener.
Elizabeth Franz
I get that a lot from people in my field. Other mediators are like, What do you mean, I’m a mediator? I’m the best kind of listener there is or therapist. I’m an excellent listener. And they go through And they realize why I just hadn’t thought about it that way. They haven’t done the sort of self reflection, like, I think so much focus is external, like, I’m focused on ujo instead of focused on, am I have I emptied myself? Am I open? Am I present, right? And then learning how to again make verbal that processing so that your speaker is signaled and aware that you’ve taken in what they said, and have a chance to say, oh, no, actually meant this, or I think you misunderstood me, let me try again, you just get this deeper, clearer understanding. And again, you get that immediate reward of connection, which then people will keep coming back to, because you’ll always get it. Right. Like, every time you listen in this way, you’re gonna immediately be rewarded versus when you listen, sort of in the way that we haven’t thought about, we’re not really taught to do it. You’re not getting that reward. You’re looking for connection, but it’s not necessarily getting you there every time.
Joey Pinz
And are they coached to be an empty vessel and Taoism, you know, not doing Are they are they the listeners coached beforehand.
Elizabeth Franz
So we talk about it in the lab. And we do sort of a grounding at the beginning where again, like we picture, scooping up everything that happened that day, and putting it a container in our left, scooping out the future. And every all the anxieties, all the dreams, all that out putting it on our right. And we kind of get settled into the space. So we’re about creating those conditions so that we can be present. And part of that is walking through that exercise. Part of that is jumping right into something active and not spending a ton of time lecturing and giving people’s mind space to wander off and be not present. And then part of that is putting them in pairs. You know, when you have one person in front of you, you don’t have YouTube, you don’t have social media, you have a real human in front of you really talking to you. I think that really puts you in the right conditions to be open to listening, especially when we’ll do like open workshops where it’s all strangers. And they’re like, I don’t even know you. And now they have to deeply listen to them maybe deeper than they’ve ever listened to anyone important to them in their life. Versus we work with teams, you know, the feedback, the end is while we’ve we’ve never communicated that, well, I’ve never really understood my coworkers until we’ve gone through these exercises.
Joey Pinz
Andduring is so fascinating to me and during the lab. If somebody’s not doing a good job listening to you come in.
Elizabeth Franz
So I think what is a good job, and what is a bad job isn’t up to me is up to their speaker. Right? So it’s, I we talk about it, what did you notice? And if the speaker is like, Well, I really didn’t feel heard by my listener, then the next question is, well, what, what would what would you need to feel heard? Or what happened that made you feel like you weren’t being heard? And well, you know, they pick up their phone, or, you know, they they repeat it back what I said, but they didn’t give me a chance to tell them what I really meant. Or, you know, I just felt like they were listening to respond. And they kept telling me, they kept responding. And I didn’t actually get a chance to like finish my thought or I was interrupted. And then when we identify that behavior, then you know, we’re like, Okay, let’s try again, what can we do instead? So one thing we do in one of the modules is, everyone has to ask themselves, what do I need to feel heard? And that’s different for every person. Okay? I like nods. You’re nodding, I like that. I like them isn’t, oh, yeah, I like those. But not everybody dies. Not everybody wants you to lean forward or lean back. You know, not everybody wants the pace of the conversation to be slower or too fast. So we actually have people think about that and make a request from their listener for those things. And then when they debrief, they’re able to give feedback. So I actually haven’t had anyone in the lab do so badly, I felt I had to intervene, I’d probably only intervene if it became abusive or traumatizing behavior, in which case, I would just eject them from the Zoom Room, which is a nice button to have. But I’ve never had that experience. Because I think we get people in the conditions where this is a voluntary course. And we’re not forcing anyone to be there. We tell people, if you want to leave at any point, you can. So if you’re there, we’re assuming you want to be there. And we’re assuming that you want to learn how to listen better. And we’re creating the conditions for you to have the opportunity to practice and people take that opportunity. People don’t see that opportunity and think ooh, I’m gonna mess with somebody. That’s, that’s maybe a reaction when you’re anonymous online and you’re trolling but when there is a human in front of you genuinely trying to, you know, be heard and share with you. We default to making sure that we’re doing our best and our best would use improvements, but it’s never something to the point where I’d have to eject someone from a zoom. Does that answer your question? Joe?
Joey Pinz
You’re here, Elizabeth? does gender play a role in listening?
Elizabeth Franz
I think it can. You know, I think it depends on your culture and conditioning. And I think also the examples of people around you and your relationship with gender, I think I see Gen Z, and they’re really pushing the boundaries of saying, you know, we’re non binary, we’re queer, we’re, you know, very open about the transgender community. It’s not a hush hush thing. I think those are all real improvements. You know, I think transgender non binary has existed in all human history, it I think this generation has really been given the permission and space and taken the space to say that, I think for you know, maybe older generations were like traditional depictions of gender, I think it does affect how you listen, I think it affects how you speak maybe more than how you listen. And I think that it might, it because it affects how you speak, if you’re conditioned, maybe as like, traditionally masculine, or maybe toxically, masculine, to like, take up space and assert yourself, you’re not going to have as much capacity to listen, because all of your skills, and everything that is expected of you and rewarded is you taking up space and being assertive, whereas maybe, you know, traditional female roles were more like you got rewarded for listening. And you didn’t necessarily get rewarded for taking up space. So you maybe have more capacity, more practice listening because of the rigid gender role that you were forced into, versus a man who maybe doesn’t have as much space. And I think that’s changing. And I think that it also depends on how you relate to the opposite gender, you know, I’ve had many male friends, many male partners, I have a dad. And I listened to them, I was genuinely curious about what their experience was like. And they were very curious about mine. And we were able to share that. And I think because of that maybe we have more capacity to listen and that’s not necessarily because of our assigned a gender but more because we had really strong relationships and a curiosity for each other’s lived experiences.
Joey Pinz
That’s comforting to hear Elizabeth. I wonder about that. Just, you know, I’ve European background and you know, it’s kind of a, you know, the culture is a bit different there. And in, in Italy, for example, my father is from the woman is very vocal and very, you know, outspoken and, you know, runs the house in a kind of different manner. But the men just tend not to listen, but I guess it’s just a generalization. It’s just a generalization there, but I just I wonder where that plays. Yeah. Another great thing you talked about, we alluded to it, but just the body posture, one thing you mentioned, and while you were talking about it, I couldn’t help but observe myself, but your tongue should be resting on the top of your mouth. Explain.
Elizabeth Franz
Yeah. Yeah, so that’s actually I think the name of it is mewing, which is exercises for your tongue. And, biologically, naturally, our tongues are supposed to rest at the top of our tongues, at the top of our mouth. So if your tongue is resting at the bottom of your mouth, that’s actually straining your your tongue muscle, it’s not actually how your tongue is supposed to function. And that can change how you speak how you breathe, how you swallow and can lead to like lots of health problems. And my friend has what is called Baby tongue, where her tongue isn’t long enough necessarily to like rest at the top of her mouth. So she started practicing mewing to kind of stretch her tongue muscle out and get it to rest at the top. And really, it’s like, you know, you have your, your teeth at the back of your top teeth. And then if you go a little bit further in the mouth, you’re you’re at the top, your mouth kind of caves in a little bit like it goes in. So I’m pushing on my teeth, I go back, it’s actually that like ledge where it starts kind of scooping in and having this nice like shape. That’s where your tongue is supposed to rest. That’s biologically, physiologically as far as I know, again, if an expert wants to correct me, let me know. But that is the natural place to rest
Joey Pinz
When listening. The idea is not to strain any muscles keep muscles in a natural position so you can empty that vessel.
Elizabeth Franz
Yeah, the less tension, the better. And I think for me, if I can focus on my physical sensation that sometimes helps me keep all the other voices and clutter at bay and the So I’m always like, Are my feet on the ground? Where am I in my chair? Where’s my tongue, and that doesn’t require, you know, language processing. It’s just sort of this automatic muscle memory that I can tap into so that the language processing parts of my brain can focus on the words that are being spoken to me. And, and the sounds of that person’s voice.
Joey Pinz
Very important. It’s not just an inflection and, you know, emojis try to do a job of for inflection. Sometimes when texting and you know, my, you know, I’ll say to my daughter, did you talk to your sister today? And she’ll say, Yeah, I said, Olivia, I mean, talking like what we’re doing now? And she’s like, Oh, no, no, we texted, as I said, very, very different. That’s what I meant by talking. You also talk about how people will pick up their cell phone, middle of conversation, you’re talking to them? And yeah, I just, I can’t stand that I put my hand you know, I probably probably don’t do the best reaction, but it’s just, it’s rude. Elizabeth, it’s rude.
Elizabeth Franz
Yeah, I mean, I, I feel that way I’m in your camp of it feels very rude, I’ll turn my phone off or on Do Not Disturb. I mean, I also have privileges that allow for that, right. If I’m a parent, you best believe my phone would be on all the time, if my child needed anything, I would want to drop everything get out of there. I’m not a parent, I can turn off my phone. There’s nobody in my life that I’m caretaking. For that would need to access me at 24/7. If there was, I understand why you would leave your phone on. I think that I’ve also kind of adapted to understanding like neuro divergence and anxiety and social anxiety in particular, my partner always has his phone. And it used to really bother me. But then I started realizing that we will be talking and the reason he picked up his phone was because something I said reminded him of something he saw, and he wanted to pull it up and show me. And part of how he communicates, is to say, Oh, that reminds me of this comic, or this piece of artwork or this person, let me show you who that is. That’s his way of trying to add layers to the communication. And it took me a minute because I came in with that harsh judgment. You’re just being rude. You’re not listening. And after I slowed down and was like, What are you doing with your phone? He’s like, Well, I’m looking up the thing you just mentioned, I actually saw something related to that. And I want to show it to you. And I learned to slow down my communication. Let him do that. And then I think with people who are neurodivergent, or anxiety, the phone is often a comfort thing. So I think you know, etiquette comes from very colonizing very elitist mentality of you, this is controlling the way you should be behaving. If you don’t behave this way. You’re a peasant. And I think what we can evolve into as a society is to say, the same way I’m listening to your words, I want to listen to your behavior and understand like, ask the question, what is on your phone? Or what are you doing in an way that’s not what are you doing? That’s rude? Then they get defensive. And then you know, when I asked the question, well, what’s going on on your phone? That’s so interesting. He’s like, Well, it’s what you were talking about. And I’m like, Oh, you’re really engaged to the point where you’re trying to engage further with additional information in media, because he thinks very visually, versus I don’t think visually, like I have, I forgot what I think it’s called Fantasia, or like, I can’t picture things in my head. I can’t picture images. And that’s, I don’t know how common that is. I have complex PTSD. So maybe it’s like attached to that. But he has these vivid visualizations he’s drawing, he’s a comic artist. So like, that is integral to how he communicates. And just because it’s not integral to mine, and if I’m looking at my phone in a conversation with you, I am being rude. I’m telling you, I’m not interested anymore. So I don’t ever do it unless I’m really not interested. But it’s a different way that he communicates and I had to listen to that, understand it and accept that, you know, this idea that what is rude, what is right or is wrong, is again, a legacy of colonialism.
Joey Pinz
My partner does the same thing. And so as soon as you said, I just recently I said something I mentioned a musical artist and a song and she’s like, she started looking it up. I said, What do you do when she was like, yeah, and, and she does the same thing. We used to have a policy with my girls with my my daughter’s at dinner, whoever got the took the phone out, had to say an embarrassing story or a joke. That didn’t last very long. Once they’ve, you know, gotten to college became you know, you know women but you know also you know you talked about taking out your phone, just the society where people are distracted look Lizabeth I brought props like if somebody would like to like a fidget spinner during a conversation again is it is it add which you know we can argue as overdiagnosis not is it just, it’s just hard to be present.
Elizabeth Franz
Yeah, I think that it can be hard to be present for some people I think that again with the neuro divergence being more aware of those things whether I mean I know ADHD is over diagnosed as well. But as somebody who you know, I have complex PTSD, I did neurofeedback, and I was actually able to see the electrical activity in my brain mapped out. And, you know, my amygdala was on fire, super overactive. And my prefrontal cortex was really under utilized, like I didn’t have enough neurons firing. And that wasn’t like, a choice I made wasn’t a moral failure failure. That was the fact that my brain developed in conditions where it felt constantly under threat and so my amygdala is maybe overdeveloped hyper aware. And when I went through neurofeedback, I had the experience of having my amygdala electrical activity turned down, and my prefrontal cortex turned up. And I can tell you that from the experience of having complex PTSD and an ON FIRE amygdala, a fidget spinner would have been a godsend. Because my brain would have had something else to send electrical activity to, it would have something else to work with. And when I kind of learned about fidgets, and they’re kind of becoming like more of a thing, now, they weren’t really a thing. When I was a kid, you know, I got in trouble for fidgeting in class, or got in trouble for doodling in class. But that actually really helped my brain soothe my on fire amygdala. And now that I’m on the other side of it, and I’m more balanced out, I don’t necessarily need it. I do find it distracting when someone else is is fidgeting, because I’m so present, and I’m paying attention to everything that they’re saying. But I think because I’ve been on both sides of that neurological diversity, where I’ve been off the scale unhealthy brain, my brain was really struggling to going through the treatment and getting to a place where my brain is functioning more optimally, I understand the experience. And when I see a fidget spinner, you know, unless the intention really is to be rude, and they’re sitting there like actively trying to piss me off, which I which I would say is rarely, if ever the case, I learned to just tune it out, right and kind of let it fade into the background, because that’s what also how our brain works, right? If something stays constant, our brain will filter it out. So the reason that fidget spinner I’m suffering is my choice to pay attention to it. If I just again, woo a non doing if I just allow it to be, it will fade into the background the same way that you know, the sound of the air and the AC doesn’t irritate you, because your brain eventually kind of just filters it out. I let the fidget spinner or the fidget or whatever that person needs to accommodate, you know, their, their brain and what they need in that moment. Sometimes it’s social anxiety. Sometimes it was a bad day. I’m, I’m open and willing to receive that without judgment. And I don’t always ask, it’s normally not always my business. You know, it was my partner. It was my business, what he was doing on his phone, and why he wasn’t listening to me. And I, you know, if we were having a romantic moment, and you took out a fidget spinner, I might be like, right now. But for someone who comes to mediation, or someone I’m interacting with in life, if that is helpful to them, you know, I wish I had had things that were helpful for me when I was struggling. And now that I’m on the other side, I’m sort of I’m think I’m more understanding and like, Okay, if you need that, do whatever you need to do, because I would rather you not suffer through this conversation, especially if I can easily ignore it.
Joey Pinz
By the way, that great band name would be Megalon. Fire. I think I’m gonna go firm humans. I just wrote that down. Your firm, humans mediate is is so at the core, you’re an actual mediator, but listening is essential to that you have you have core commitments, acceptance, collaboration and consent. Talk to me about that.
Elizabeth Franz
Yeah, so we’re mediators. We developed our own innovative mediation process and integrates the latest technology mediation hasn’t gotten a facelift in a long time. And myself and my Gen Z crew, we’re here to offer that and continue to provide paths for alpha when they get to the place where they’re ready to mediate, which could be a lot earlier than people think you know, usually only a child under 12, if they’re exposed to the skills will start using them in life early. So we like to see those people in mediation, we’d love to have younger mediators as young as that with parental consent, I guess. But our core commitments are acceptance, consent and collaboration, as you mentioned, it took us a while to get those. So it was a journey. Initially, the mediation model, I was trained in the inclusive model in Maryland, their core values, what they call the big three are voluntary, confidential, and neutral. And we evolved and adapted that into what we felt was more authentic. So you know, voluntary, to me, that has connotations of like, okay, well, I’m a volunteer, or, you know, I think of like a drill sergeant, you chose to be here. But consent is we sort of took voluntary and transformed into consent, which really comes out of the sex positive movement, where they’re saying, you know, yes, enthusiastic, yes, is go for it. And and No means no. And there’s this respect for bodily autonomy. And that conversation blew up a lot when we two happened. And so consent is a word that I think the generations and the people who are around that moment resonate more with and voluntary and consent also gives you more flexibility than voluntary it says, you can say no, you can consent originally. And then change your mind and say no, and that is okay. So consent, there’s a YouTube video about consent explained as tea, which is wonderful. And everyone should learn that they actually been showing it in the doctor’s offices of a lot of the teenagers that my friends have. And they said that they’re really the teenagers really liked that. The collaboration that was something that didn’t necessarily wasn’t evolved from a previous core value from Kaman frm, community mediation, Maryland, it came out of, I was having interns, I had trainees, and over and over again, the feedback I got was, I had no idea collaboration was so important. I didn’t realize there is a way to collaborate, there are skills to it. There’s a way of being collaborative, that is intentional. It’s not just, oh, I’m collaborative. And what the heck does that mean? And so because so many of the people that I was working with came back to me with the most profound experience was, well, I’ve never collaborated with people in this way. I’ve never been in conditions where working together was so easy and rewarded and turned out better than we ever thought. And so I thought, wow, that is one of our core values, right? I didn’t mean to plant that seed. And yet over and over again, I got that answer. So we have consent, collaboration. And then acceptance for me, is the evolution of saying, you know, we’re third party neutrals, we’re impartial. Some people say Marty multi partial, they’ll say non judgmental, neutral. All of those words to me, are defining what we’re not doing instead of what we are doing. And so what we are doing when we’re neutral, when we’re accepting when we’re partial, impartial or multi partial, is we’re saying, we accept every person who’s here, we accept every side, every idea is accepted. And that implies an equality, right? You can’t accept something more than something else. It’s all in the same space of I’m open to accepting you, you exist. And we’re going to work with you and meet you where you are. So for acceptance, that’s making sure that every person that comes to mediation, feels that the way they show up and who they are, is the right person and the right way to mediate. So we don’t have ground rules. We don’t tell people what to do. We don’t say you’re cursing, that’s not allowed. If someone’s cursing, we reflect those curse words back to them. I would happily say them on your podcast. I don’t know if I’m allowed. So we so Yeah, they’ll say I’m fucking pissed. And a lot of mediators will say, you sound frustrated. No, I’m fucking pissed. And so our media is would say, so I’m hearing that you’re fucking pissed. And the person’s like, Yeah, I’m like, beyond frustrated. I’m beyond angry. I’m fucking pissed. And and when you reflect that back to somebody, you’re not only demonstrating that you heard them, but you’re saying I accept that you’re fucking pissed. There is nothing wrong with you for feeling this way. In fact, tell me what is going on? That is so that has you fucking pissed because it’s okay that you’re fucking pissed. I believe that you are helped me understand what’s going on because I want to understand what are the needs you have that are not being met? You only get fucking pissed when a need have has been unmet over and over and over. over and over again or a need that is so central to your being is being unmet that you have now become fucking pissed. And I think, emotionally when we listen, we think, Oh, that person is overreacting, they’re overdramatic, but what we really, if we’re listening in an accepting way, we’re saying, that person is fucking pissed. And I cannot change how that person feels. If I had the magic formula to make people feel certain things, I would make everyone feel beautiful and happy and loved and appreciated all the time. I can’t do that. If I could, I would. So if I can’t change that they’re fucking pissed. Then the best option again, Huawei con action, meet them where they’re at, okay, you’re fucking pissed. There’s nothing wrong with that. That’s perfectly valid. I meet you where you are, helped me understand. And when we can get that understanding that person goes from fucking pissed to feeling heard, they’re de escalated, they start telling you what happened. You start understanding what their needs are. And when you understand what their needs are, you can make plans to meet those needs. I think that that acceptance is that core piece, because I’m not saying, Well, I’m not taking your side or that side. You’re not You’re that’s distracting. Because you’re sitting there thinking, how can I be neutral, what I want to be is accepting what I want to be is present to what’s in front of me and saying, whatever it is, however this person is feeling. I trust them. I trust that this is really what they’re experiencing. And since I can’t change how they feel, I will try and understand it. And in that understanding, you do change the feeling right? They go from fucking pissed. That’s exactly it. I am fucking pissed. Thank you. I’m so glad someone finally understands. And you take fucking pissed, too. I don’t understand why you take your phone out. When we go out all the time to Oh, you are verbal community, you think visually. And oh, you you actually have anxiety. And this actually really helps you. And this, you know, limits your suffering. Now I went from fucking pissed to connect it to you, I understand you we can have a deeper relationship. And my needs to feel heard can happen. Because now I know you’re listening, even though you’re on your phone, and your need to communicate visually is met because I learned to slow down and let you look it up and show me.
Joey Pinz
So do who comes to you do couples come to you do business associates to employers? And who is always a person who’s upset and the other person who’s not hearing them? Are they alone? Is it a group of people? Is it a family dynamic? There’s a lot of questions here, Elizabeth?
Elizabeth Franz
Yeah, all of the above Joe. What we find is that mediation is best for humans who can take the actions to meet their needs. So sometimes with workplaces, I’ll have a manager come to me and say two of my direct reports are fighting. And I’ll say great, you call it the right person. I let them know that it’s a confidential process. I can’t tell them. Anything that comes out at the mediation if they can live with that we’re on to the next step. I tell them you can’t force them to mediate. If they say no, I won’t do it. They have to both want to do it. If you try to force him to do it, they’re going to get to mediation, I’m going to ask them if they want to be here. And if they say no, I will tell them they’re welcome to leave at any time. So don’t play games. And they will say yes to both of those things, sometimes reluctantly, but they’re at the end of the rope. They want to try something new, what they’ve been trying isn’t working and they need something else. And then you have co workers or you do have couples. We have roommates, you have co founders, you talk about entrepreneurship, one of the main causes of a small business or venture ending pre approved before it gets to its full potential is you’ll have co founders or staffing issues, and those personal conflicts, break it down, and it’s over. You have dreams shattered because you can’t get along. And that’s a bit that’s more common than people realize. We don’t talk about people’s failure stories as much as we talk about success, but they’re for every success. There’s a million failures. And many of those are relationships. You have parents. So parenting plans are really important. You have teenagers and their parents, kids and their parents you have anybody who is in relationship with someone else and they are doing something together can benefit from either being proactive. So using mediation to make plans together, how are we going to do this? How are we going to collaborate? You can use it to respond when something happens. Hope this fire happened at work or hey, we’re getting divorced or you know what we’re planning on having kids. Do we both agree that they should go to private school? No, oh, we better have a conversation or are they going to get raised in your My faith, right? That is a conversation that is really worth mediating. And then there’s reflecting right and saying, okay, something’s happened. Let’s mediate. It’s not immediate, but let’s learn from what happened, right? Like, if we’re co founders and you know, we’ve had a good run, we’re happily entering the business or, you know, if we’re in a relationship, and we’re breaking up, it might be worth sitting down and saying, Well, what happened? Learning understanding what could I do better, even if you intend to end that relationship, you’re able to reap more benefits and learn more and meet more of your needs when you mediate either, you know, proactively in response to something or reflectively. And again, anybody, you know, lots of mediators will Nish. And for us, our process is able to accommodate all those people. There are different programs we offer so that you can get more support. If you’re a parenting plan, you might want support about child development. If you’re a couple, you might want some support around like, yeah, how do you divide assets? How would the court how would it be beneficial to go to court? How would it not benefit me to go to court? Right? If you’re, if your co workers, okay, we went through this, but what’s going on at our company? Right? Like, that’s what we add a consulting as well. So we do listening tours, we go through an entire organization group of people and say, what’s going on? What’s been going on in the past? What’s going on? Now? What do you hope for the future? And then through that listening, whatever emerges, we might mediate, we might do restorative practice, we might do a training, but we allow the needs to emerge, and then we try to meet them. And we also trust that the people who know what they need and how to meet them are the people involved, right? I don’t come into an organization or a couple or a parent to co parents and say, I am the expert. I know everything. I’m a colonizer, I’m arrogant, I walk in and I say, I trust that you know what’s best for yourself, you are the experts that your experience, your relationship, your circumstances, your business. So you have the answer, you know, what you need, and I have the process to help you discover what those things are, and make plans to meet those needs. Because ultimately, when they’re finished with mediation, they learn this listening, this new way of communicating, but they shouldn’t need us anymore. They learn how to go through a conflict, which is a conflict of simply when your needs and my needs aren’t being met. And mediation is a process to find out what those are and how to meet them. And we don’t get a lot of repeat clients. Because they learn they see the process, they get better at listening to each other, they get better at listening to themselves and making requests and offerings. And then they don’t need us to have a sustainable solution to make their collaboration better. And everything they do, whether that be starting a fortune 500 company, starting a small business, having a kid together being roommates, being neighbors, whatever it is, we’re able to accommodate that and hold space for it.
Joey Pinz
What a wonderful, wonderful service, I can see so many people benefiting from that. So on the podcast, Elizabeth, we we talk about discipline, right? So I lost a lot of weight when I was young. You know, I started a business, you know, maybe if I listened to my body a little more, but anyway. And I lost, you know, so the doctor said, You’re not going to see your daughter graduate. So I needed to hear and so I just you know, you’re pre diabetic, you’re pre hypertensive, you know, so, hypertension, so you know, I just turned everything around, and I lost a bunch of weight. And so people asked me they want some silver bullet and I just say discipline, I lost it because it is medica focused, and I got discipline. I wonder how how you view discipline? And how discipline plays a role in listening and mediation?
Elizabeth Franz
Yeah, well, I’ll answer that question about discipline, I want to first say to you, Joe, that that pre diabetes, that eating was not your fault. And I hope you know that there are huge industries and power that benefited from you. eating that way ignoring your body, being in a position where you were so sick, that you might have to go on insulin that your own hormones couldn’t maintain it. And that’s, you know, you were set up to fail by a food system by a pharmaceutical system by a healthcare system that’s failed by a government that didn’t regulate any of those things. And I hope that you know, I know you’ve overcome that and you know, you really deserve to give yourself credit for overcoming that and I hope that you are able to remove any of that blame from yourself because it absolutely had nothing to do with you and self control and freewill you were genuinely sabotage and set up to fail like all Americans have been. So I from one human to another, I hope you get the message that I would not fault your past self, if any thing. I think it sounds like you do have gratitude for your past self for having the discipline to overcome.
I thought to myself, I got myself here. I’ll get out of it. You know? Have you considered your I mean, you talked about struggles with PTSD and Do you consider yourself as a child as a younger person discipline has ever come into a role in your life?
Elizabeth Franz
Yeah, I was initially attracted to your podcast, you’re talking about discipline and discipline feels so countered to walk away? Why it was so interesting to me because I think, yes, there is a part of me that I would say was disciplined. I actively sought out answers for why I was experiencing and suffering the way I was. I had to really reach out to lots of people to learn about neurofeedback, I had to be courageous and brave to try something new. I also had privileges I had access to the capital to reach that service. It’s not covered by insurance. PTSD is not covered by insurance. It’s not in the DSM, I think it is, but I had Complex PTSD. And currently there is no FDA approved treatment of PTSD. So you aren’t going to get really any help. I think maybe our veterans are served better, maybe. But your average person isn’t going to have access to neurofeedback. And I also had the education and I was in a city where I had a Neurofeedback practitioner that was fantastic. I owe a debt of gratitude to Dr. Ashley Bell and neuro gro for hugely transforming my life. And, yes, it was disciplined to get there. And it was rewiring my brain speaking the language of my brain electrically, and there was no amount of freewill or discipline or effort that I could have put in, that would have soothed my on fire amygdala and brought my prefrontal cortex back to life, there is no amount of self determination, that would have done that I was very far gone. So not everyone is, you know, more than three standard deviations from a healthy brain, I was off on both ends of the scale. Not everyone is in that position, thank God, I would not wish that upon anyone. But when I saw my brain, and now I just did a dried urine test, I got to see my hormone levels, it’s very helpful to recognize that, yes, I can be disciplined about my diet, my exercise my sleep, I’m very good at those things. And there are physical realities that are out of my control, and listening and understanding my body and understanding that there is a way to live in harmony with how I’m physiologically biologically designed. And my current environment is incompatible with that. My late stage capitalist, my pharmaceutical companies rule everything, my really debilitated food systems soil that has been depleted for centuries, I didn’t have any control over that, no amount of discipline is going to get the same mineral content in the soil that was there before it was taken out and exploited by factory farming. But by understanding and accepting that reality, I can make different choices. I can, you know, maybe alert people to that, as I hopefully I’m right now by mentioning it. And I can figure out where discipline is useful. So wu wei isn’t not doing all the time. It’s not doing in harmony with doing right. So you have the Yin Yan where it’s like, okay, there are times when not doing is what is needed. And there are times when doing is what is needed. And for me, I found that in all these systems, and these combative systems and these horrible communications and these poor conditions for collaboration, and our terrible food system and pharmaceutical industry. I could fight them. I could go though doing route and disciplinary devote my whole life to fighting them. There are people who do that, and I appreciate them deeply. And there’s a not doing way, which is to say, okay, you know, the courts and the criminal justice system exist. I disagree with a lot of how they do things. I don’t want to fight them. I think they do some things very well. And I think they should continue existing for certain things. As a mediator, I’m saying instead of doing and fighting you and saying you’re my adversary, and aggressively doing, which is what colonization has taught us to do, right? The person with the most force and weapons wins. I’m saying, if you are incompatible with the way humans are social and how we are psychologically and if you have caused so much damage and mistrust, you will decompose and I have to do nothing. Right you will decompose and the way that everything humans build will decompose if nature takes back over right Doesn’t matter how hard we try Hurrican will swallow you. And we’ve learned that over and over and over again, by not doing by not fighting, and saying I’m taking you down. That is the better approach. When I look at the courts, I’m actually now switching to doing and saying, instead of fighting you, I’m going to take that due energy, and turn that into building an alternative system and say, hey, you know, the cases where people are really emotional, and it’s very personal, and you don’t have case precedent for where the kids socks go, why don’t you send them to mediation? Because now we can actually have a conversation about where your child’s socks go, because can you imagine if you’re a kid and your socks are in two different homes, how are you supposed to have matching socks, and there’s no law that says you must have matching socks. But the kid and the parents are so upset about the socks is a real case, the socks is a real case. And I was like, if you had said this to a judge, they would have chewed you out and said, You crazy people get over the socks, right? And when you come to mediation, we say, you know, what, if the socks would really improve your quality of life, if the socks are really causing suffering, I believe you because you were telling me they are. And let’s figure out our plan for the socks. What is the plan? And I didn’t tell them what to do. They came up with well, why don’t we just buy her all the same socks, she has all the same color socks, all the same brand, so that no matter what, how she said, her socks will always match. And now this thing that maybe sounds ridiculous to any of us would sound like nothing to a judge, this family is now able to operate in a better way. Because the thing that was so irritating, but they were losing their minds about it has been solved. Because we accepted that that was real, that wasn’t a need for them to have matching socks, and we made sure they had a way to meet that need. So I’m not doing the fighting, I am doing the building a parallel system. And I am actively asking and inviting collaboration with the courts, because I don’t see them as an enemy. I’d rather us be in harmony. And how we can be in harmony is knowing what we’re both good at, and serving all the needs, including the legal needs and the needs for Sox. And we can do that better together than fighting.
So if we go back to discipline, is it needed in listening? Is it needed in mediation specifically, is it like you so you kind of if I understand if I went when you’re not doing does not doing involve a certain level of dispute, by the way, I don’t mean to insinuate that discipline is the face of everything. There’s some things that I’m just putting out and some things that other I don’t mean to be captain discipline. It’s just kind of the string that I that I love to hear people’s viewpoint on. Some people have a very militaristic view of it. Discipline is, you know, punishing your children. And some people say, well, self discipline is just making sure I push the takeaway, you know, so there’s, there’s a spectrum perhaps, yeah.
Elizabeth Franz
Yeah, I think that discipline has an actor role to take and not doing. And I think that in a culture that has conditioned us to be very doing, it is a discipline and is a practice, it is a skill to be an empty vessel. It is a skill to be accepting. And the skill that mediators are excellent at, or at least my mediators are excellent at if humans mediate, is getting out of the way. Right? We’re saying maybe we haven’t had this modeled for us. Maybe this is the first time our participants have ever experienced professionals, having the discipline to hold space for them and not take up space ourselves. There is a discipline to that. And and part of that has been, you know, as a mediator, people will come in and they’ll treat me like the authority like, well, what would you do? Why don’t you tell us what to do, because they’re used to that. They’re used to going to a judge, a parent, a superior, an elder, who will say, top down, this is what you’re going to do, and they just are obedient and follow it, whether or not it’s right for them. And so in mediation, I have to have the discipline to start with listening, understanding and say, what sounds like you’re looking for an outside opinion. Tell me more about that. What is important to you about getting someone else’s opinion? Well, you know, we want an expert opinion, we don’t really know. Okay, so it sounds like really valuing expertise, and that you’re feeling confused about what to do. Is that right? Yeah. And then I asked, what, what do you where do you think you could get that expertise? Oh, you know, maybe maybe someone’s written a book about this, or, you know, what, I actually would probably just want to talk to my priest, or, you know, my therapist actually could give me a referral to a family therapist. And so people have the answer, but they’ve been so disciplined and conditioned to, like, immediately ask and authority. There’s a sort of learned helplessness, and there’s a discipline And in holding space for people to have a different experience, right? They, they want me as a media to come in and fix it. And I have to have the discipline to remain empty to keep my agenda, my opinion, what I think they should do, I have to leave that outside the mediation and come in, stay empty, stay present, give space for them to come into their own solutions. And that can be very difficult. When you’re in a society that says, the only value is if you come in and you tell me what to do, and you fix it. And we’re trying to do something counter to that. And that does take practice and discipline and skill. It’s hard to fight the urge that the sort of instinct that I’ve been getting conditioned to have to say, Oh, I have the answer, go see that I have this family therapists are great, right? Because when I do that, it’s immediately disempowering, because now the thing that they’re doing isn’t the thing that they want to do, or the thing that they came up with, it’s the thing that mediator told them to do. That’s not a sustainable solution. Because I’m not going to be around to tell them what to do, when that doesn’t work, or when they want to do something else. But if they can learn themselves, and again, we have to as mediators have the discipline, to hold the space to listen, to understand, to stay accepting, to not take up space to not impose ourselves, that is very difficult skill to get muscle memory. And when our culture and society has conditioned us do the exact opposite. So yes, there is space for discipline, there is a lot of discipline required when you’re learning a new skill when you’re doing something that feels counterintuitive, because the culture has conditioned you to have a different reaction. And mediators see participants have a reaction when we don’t take over when we don’t tell them what to do. And we have to be able to skillfully and in disciplined way keep that and maintain our neutrality and maintain our acceptance, maintain our trust in them, that they know best that we could not possibly come up with a solution better than they could because they’re the experts out there on life.
Joey Pinz
Well said, Elizabeth Franz, what motivates you.
Elizabeth Franz
I have my core values, which are acceptance, we weigh in beginner mindset, I have my core desires, I desire to be a whole human living in oneness, I desire to be loved and to love. And I have a desire to create and practice transformative patterns. And what motivates me is to make sure that everything I’m doing in my life is aligned with that. I’m very privileged, I’m very fortunate that, you know, running him as mediate training mediators at the university out here. All of that has been aligned with my values and my core desires. And that’s been able to maintain a life and sustain a life that I want to live and don’t feel the need to escape from. And the other motivation is that as a part one part of our glorious whole, I the best contribution I can offer is high quality mediation services, training, high quality mediators, because the future that we deserve, is better than the one we have. There’s a lot of building we have to do. And the catalyst for that building the conditions to make that building meet everyone’s needs is in mediation. And that’s what I can contribute the best. And then that’s what I’ve devoted my life to, it’s been 10 years in the field, and I intend to keep going until I can’t anymore. And that is what my piece of the whole can offer.
Joey Pinz
A wonderful is with you, you have personal core values. So that’s one sides done, every action that you take, is a reflection of those values. That’s what that’s what How did you arrive to those core values?
Elizabeth Franz
So it was a long process, I had to explore a lot of different value words, I had to find out that that is what mattered. I think. The mediation I practice, we listen for people’s values. So I was trained very early on to listen for what is important to people. And then I had to listen to myself and find out what’s important to me. And it’s a journey to cultivate your own voice. That’s a training we offer because there are a lot of voices imposed on you. That condition you and I had to really quiet that noise listen to myself. And I think because I was privileged to be taught to listen for values. I knew that if I don’t understand what’s important to me, I can’t choose actions or take actions that reflect what I really want to put out into the world. And then desires is another thing. I think there’s this Puritan Catholic influence in both being American and you know, I’m Filipino, so very Catholic, Italian, smiling, you know, that’s kind of like poopoo on Plan. Sure and desires, right? Like, No, we should all be I don’t know, what are they? The stoics? Yeah, we should all be morally above desire. But frankly, if I’m not doing something I want to do if I’m not living a life that I can enjoy them, what am I really doing? And I think part of again, I feel responsible as a part of our whole I feel connected to my humanity, my species, my ecosystem, I plan it my universe, I’ve been entrusted with one piece of that. And I need to do with that piece the best I can. And that is reflecting my values, contributing what I am most able to contribute, and enjoying, and meeting my desires, right, knowing what those are and meeting those without shame or guilt, and in fact, pride and enjoyment. And so hopefully, one piece of our late stage capitalist suffering hole can be like, I’m okay. Like, I am better than Okay, I am enjoying myself, I am living in alignment with my values, I am meeting my desires. And that’s the best I can do.
Joey Pinz
So how do you measure success?
Elizabeth Franz
So that’s a good question. Mediation is more about the process and the outcome, which is also very countercultural, I would say, how do I measure success is present? How am I now? And I think even more fundamentally, I ask my body like, did I sleep? Have I eaten? have I eaten something good for me? And my hydrated? And, you know, looking at my neurological activity, okay, how am I feeling cognitively? How is my brain doing? When I did my dried urine test? Okay, how are my hormones doing right? Because that electricity, those hormones is dictate everything in my experience in my life. And so now I’m beginning the arduous journey of figuring out how to balance my incredibly imbalanced hormones. And I am seeking the help of doctors who know how to read a Dutch test, which is not very many. And I am finding what I’m sure you found, when you were doing your weight loss, that there are systems that actively are in place to sabotage you, right, you can make more money off of a sick person than a healthy person, you can make more money off of women who is hormonally imbalanced than one that is in harmony with her hormones with her body with her cycle. And so there is no incentive in late stage capitalism to ensure that you’re at a healthy weight and that your insulin is working. And to ensure that my progesterone, my estrogen my my insulin is working properly, because if it’s not working properly, I’m a great customer. And that’s what this system is always going to produce.
Joey Pinz
That’s a shame. You know, it’s interesting, you say that I’ve got a great meme on my phone. I want to show you but no, that’s a little joke. That’s a joke. It’s a joke. Of course, it was a fraud and absolute delight. You know, when when I saw it, you accepted and you know, I do a little research on you and I was excited to talk to you you’re very inspirational. You know, mediation is something that I wasn’t aware of that’s available. I’m hoping people listening know that, you know, that know that it is now and I want to thank you for your time, how can we get in touch with you?
Elizabeth Franz
So great question. We’d love to connect. Our website is humans mediate.com Humans spelled with a z instead of an S so plural humans with a Z. It’s humans media.com You can schedule a time on my Calendly link there I’ll talk to you for 15 minutes on Zoom No Strings Attached we love to connect and hear about people who want to understand mediation become mediator themselves, have a problem they want solved through mediation collaboratively, any training, more than happy to reach out to people and soon on our website. We’ll have an events calendar, people can join the listening lab. We open it up to people very
Joey Pinz
Good and we’ll make sure to put that in the show notes. Elizabeth Franz an absolute delight thank you so much for your time and you know, you live close to my my partner, my girlfriend, maybe one day the four of us will go out and you know, have a cup of coffee.
Elizabeth Franz
I love that and your partner and my partner can be on their phone showing each other stuff and you and I can show proper communication communicate presently in person without looking feet on the ground that I’m calling you out.
Joey Pinz
Thank you so much. And well. We’ll have to meet up. I appreciate your time you’d be well
Elizabeth Franz
Thanks. I Appreciate it. Nice to meet you.
