SUMMARY KEYWORDS
mediation, mediator, people, hear, mediate, reflecting, meet, person, conversation, relationship, situations, participants, liar, honesty, neutral, words, unmet, listening, reward, courts
SPEAKERS
Elizabeth Franz, Matt & Rebecca
Podcast Link: External website
Matt
Hello, and welcome to the relationship breakthrough show from aligned with love. I’m Matt
Rebecca
and I am Rebecca. This is the place for people to have a magical, loving, intimate relationship.
Matt
Thanks for joining us. Now let’s get started, have been stuck with a disagreement where despite your best efforts, you can’t manage to find a resolution at all is working for everybody. What could you try to do to break out of that cycle and to find a more empowering way to resolve your issues? Today, we’re gonna be looking at mediation as a model of identifying your needs and seeing how each person can successfully meet their needs, either in the relationship or outside of it. We’re going to be joined by Elizabeth who has been a mediator for the past 10 years, guiding people through their most difficult conversations. And we’re going to be looking at the skills that she’s developed and learned and practiced as a mediator and sharing them with you today. So we’re going to cover a lot of ground looking at things like collective action, how we make decisions together, and to communicate in a way that really builds relationships in a positive way. So I’m excited to have you on the show today, Elizabeth, welcome.
Elizabeth Franz
Thanks, man. I’m happy to be here.
Matt
Amazing. And my first question was, how would you define mediation?
Elizabeth Franz
Yeah, so very simply, mediation is a process for you, the participants, to find what your needs are, and get them met. We look for Win Win solutions and a mediation, the process is guided by a mediator who’s playing the role of a third party neutral.
Matt
I see. So you’ve got a neutral party, a mediator? Who is sort of hosting the conversation between two people. Is that Is that right?
Elizabeth Franz
Exactly. We’re really holding space for two or more people to talk to each other and figure out what their needs are and how to get them met.
Matt
See, so if I walked into one of these conversations, what would I see the mediator doing? Or how is the mediator hosting the conversation?
Elizabeth Franz
That’s a great question. You would see them listening, you would see what that listening looks like for mediation, it looks like two things. It looks like writing notes. We’re frantically trying to capture everything you say. And it’s two people or more talking. So our notes have to be really structured. And we have to make sure we get everything down, you’ll see us reflect back what we heard people say. And you’ll see us asking questions to get them to talk more about what they mean by things to kind of encourage more understanding and communication.
Matt
See, so you’re going to be writing down the things that people are saying and sharing and reflecting back, based on your notes. Is that right?
Elizabeth Franz
Yes. And what we’re listening for is really unique. We’re not listening for we I call it the detective hat, like hear all the facts of what happened. We’re specifically listening for how people are feeling, what’s important to them, their values, we listen for, what are the topics? So what are the concrete things that are making up all the things that are all their needs, that are being unmet, and then we listen for their ideas of how they think they want to meet those needs. So because we’re listening for those four things, all those four things are hints and clues to what people need. And because we’re only listening to those four things, we’re able to stay very neutral and open to whatever people’s needs are, because we’re not steering the conversation in one direction or the other. We’re really meeting people where they’re at.
Matt
I see. So you’re reflecting back the needs that you’re hearing expressed really through the conversation.
Elizabeth Franz
You’re reflecting how people Yeah,
Matt
yeah. People I mean, how do people respond in these meetings? When you’re reflecting back to them? How does that tend to go for people?
Elizabeth Franz
I think, one, they feel heard, and they feel heard in a way that they maybe haven’t experienced before. They’re being heard in a way where they’re not being judged, or how they are and who they are. And what they’re saying and doing is the right way to mediate that we accept everyone. However, they show up, however, they want to express themselves. So there’s this profound experience of being accepted as you are. Then the second part is I think there’s this profound new experience of hearing, hearing how you’re actually feeling and hearing what’s important to you and hearing the topic in words that maybe we don’t hear that often. We don’t usually speak and feeling value topics, idea words. And so when they’re reflected back, it’s a profound experience. I’ll give an example that we use in training all the time as if, if Matt, you and I are in mediation, I say, Matt, you’re a liar. Right? What I’m used to hearing back is you saying no, I’m not How dare you? I’m offended. How could you possibly miss characterize me all of those things, which are a totally natural reaction to being called a liar. There’s nothing wrong with that. But what a mediator says is, so I think me Hearing that honesty is important to you, and having what you actually want reflected back to you, when I’m calling you a liar. What I really want is for you to be honest with me. And I don’t necessarily have the language for that. Right? I movies you hear? You’re a liar. That’s a very familiar set of words that we’re all very familiar with. But hey, Matt, could you please be honest with me, that might be less heard of, you know, we’re used to saying what we don’t want instead of what we do. And so having what you want reflected back to you, when it wasn’t the words you used, it’s the what your words, hint at that, hey, when I’m calling you a liar, I really need honesty. That can be a very profound experience. And I particularly like this example, because maybe there is a word for this in the UK. But in English, there is a verb for to lie, we have a verb for to lie, we do not have a verb for to tell the truth. So we have a lot of words to describe the things we don’t want. We don’t have a lot of words and language, we’re not as familiar with talking about the things we do want. And so in mediation, to have someone reflect that back to you, and to have that level of clarity, that, Oh, I’m calling you a liar, because I need honesty can be a really profound experience. And it moves you towards meeting your needs, instead of towards continuing to focus on the thing that you don’t want.
Matt
I see. That’s a great example. Such a Yeah, I love the clarity that you have there. And I can certainly see how that will be powerful for people where they’ve been stuck in this blame cycle of making it about the other person. And all of a sudden, it’s reflected back in that way. Sounds really, really positive. And I was just wondering, though, because you’re, you’re writing down like what your understanding the needs are that have been expressed. I just wanted to have you ever had situations when it’s maybe a bit harder to discern what the needs are, maybe there’s the person says, Well, you’re a liar. And you then believe that what they’re saying is what honesty is important to you. But actually, what they really want is to point the finger and make the other person wrong, maybe humiliate them a bit. Yeah, come across those sorts of dynamics
Elizabeth Franz
all the time. You know, I think when I’m reflecting or taking down my notes, I come at it very humbly, with the acceptance that I never know what someone’s feeling or what’s really important to them. I don’t have their lived experience. So I couldn’t possibly understand all I could do with guests. And oftentimes, you know, I’ll make the obvious guess, okay, you call them a liar. You want honesty. And that could be totally wrong. I think those moments where the mediator is wrong, or is also great moments for clarity for the participant, because they feel it’s not honesty, it’s actually I want an apology. I want remorse, or you know what it’s not? It’s not that I need honesty, I need loyalty and trust, right? And so when you kind of give somebody that word, like, is it this value? Is it this feeling? It’s this very humble offering of like, here’s a word because I’m a mediator. So I have all this vocabulary for feelings, values that maybe the average person wouldn’t have. So here’s some options. And when they when participants shut it down, it’s not that one that’s really empowering for them to say, you don’t know, I know, because it’s true. They do know better than I do. And they get to cross one thing off the list. Okay. It’s not honesty, it’s just instead, I think people in mediation, if they want that they’re trying to humiliate someone or trying to put someone down. We’re not necessarily judging them or reflecting that, like, oh, it looks like you value humiliation. And it’s important to you to make someone feel bad, right? We try to understand what are the needs underneath that. So if I feel the need to humiliate someone and put them down, and I’m doing that in my behavior for us, that’s a need that’s not being met. And we’re trying to figure out what is that need, instead of what I think most of society would say, which is, that’s a finger wagging bad behavior. You don’t do that you’re a bad person, because you’re trying to humiliate somebody. We’re not encouraging that behavior. But we’re saying, Okay, what are you getting out of this? What, what what is important to you about this person admitting they’re wrong? And we just keep asking questions. We keep reflecting what we’re hearing. And I think we get past that fairly quickly. And I think they’ve, it’s very unsatisfying to humiliate someone in front of mediators, because we are trained to have no reaction. So they’ll be like, I got you and they’ll just see two mediators, like, taking notes and then they just, it’s not satisfying. They stop, you know, so I think it’s a sign it’s an it’s a cry for help. It’s a sign something needs to be met. And I think instead of shaming the person and saying you’re bad or judging them, they have this profound experience of we’re not going to stop you from do Do whatever you feel you need to do. And we’re going to, we’re going to witness that we’re going to reflected back to you. And that will get you closer to what you want. Because I don’t think anybody truly gets a lot out of humiliating somebody, but they might get a lot out of an apology, or someone admitting, hey, I hurt you, and I’m sorry. And that may also never happen. And that’s okay to
Matt
say, I guess that sounds really, really positive, I’m sure, as you say, in reflecting back in more neutral way, maybe taking the sting out of things, it can just cause people to be a bit calm, or maybe let go of some of those more difficult emotions. So sounds really, really positive. I was gonna ask as well, before we get more into the mediation and how it works. And so I’d love to ask you like, how did you get into this field? What, what brought you here? And how did you get to be so passionate about this area?
Elizabeth Franz
Yeah, I have a great question. So I grew up in a family with two parents who had no business being married to each other. There was a lot of fighting, there was a lot of conflict. And I think when I asked myself that deeper question, why am I here, it was originally why was I called to this work was because I was meeting the need of myself as a child who felt powerless in that situation. And when I learned conflict resolution, I kind of had tools that I wish I had had as a kid. And there was some deeper personal satisfaction in that there was a lot of trauma work to get there. And I had to accept that, you know, that need of my inner child should not actually be met at the mediation table, because I’m actually trying to support other people and just hold space for them. So I did my trauma work outside of mediation, which I don’t always see in helping professions, I kind of made the initial mistake and got drawn into it by my trauma, and then had to heal it outside of mediation. And then when I came back, it was a much better third party neutral, much better mediator, because I wasn’t processing my trauma at the mediation, I was really able to process that outside and come in and really focus. So that’s that’s the deeper answer if I’m there. And the short kind of surface answer would be, I started a mock trial in high school, like loved it, thought I was going to be an attorney. So I moved out east, which is like, on the east coast of the US. And I was like, I’m gonna be where the Founding Fathers created law, and it’s gonna be so romantic and great. I started pre law. And then I had my first basic mediation, training my college, paid for it during spring break, and I took it, and my instructor had a hell of a hard time, beating the the adversarial things that I learned in mediation and mock trial out of me. But once I transformed out of that training, I switched out of free law into peace studies, and then mediated as a community media in Baltimore, and have been mediating ever since
Matt
I see, let’s see, well, peace study sounds like a great foundation for what you’re doing. Because it sounds like that really, kind of underpins the whole thing. It’s like trying to find, trying to take the sting out of things and let people have a more productive conversation. Thanks for sharing. I wanted to ask as well, you know, you mentioned, like, when you were growing up, like, so many of us, you know, the relationships around us maybe weren’t the best examples? What are the most perfect examples of how relationships could could work? I just gonna ask you a bit more about that. Not necessarily in terms of that relationship, but how does things look like? What’s the difference when people are not having these sort of positive conversations or interactions, what kind of things tend to be happening.
Elizabeth Franz
So your needs go unmet, and they go unmet for a long time. I think with my parents, I have kind of learned to accept that they were the example I got. And they’re an excellent example of sunk cost fallacy. And they’re an excellent example of how difficult it can be to have two different cultures and how they clash. So my dad is from Chicago, my mom is from Manila, the Philippines, very different. And they were a great example of how some relationships are better ended, right? Like I see them after a divorce, and they’re much happier, they’re much fuller people. And it’s really a relief to see them without each other. And so, you know, maybe they weren’t the perfect example of what a healthy relationship was, but they were a very good example for me of this is maybe what not to do. And when you’re in a situation in a relationship where your needs are constantly being unmet, it’s time to get out of that relationship or do something to fix it. Like they their divorce dragged on for years, and then they saw a mediator and in three weeks it was solved. So it was also a really great validation. I had kept telling them go see a mediator, and they finally did and I was like this, you know, that thing that worked. That’s what I’m doing now. So, you know, their divorce was, yeah, Their divorce was a way to open the door into them being very accepting and understanding of what I was doing with my life, and why I chose peace studies and why I’m a mediator. But I think, are crucially, if you don’t have these conversations, if you don’t get support, you know, go to a mediation, your needs are going to be unmet for a long time, and that hurts you, you know, I saw both my parents have a lot of their needs that they were looking for in their marriage not be met, and they weren’t met for 20 years. And that that’s a really harsh reality, it’s a very hard thing to survive and sustain. It’s very traumatic. And so like I said, when the marriage ended, seeing them unburdened, seeing them able to meet their needs, outside of the marriage, and, and not keep looking for the marriage to meet it, and it fall short, was actually really liberation for them. And I’m very appreciative of divorce, and very appreciative that mediation supports that process.
Matt
It’s such an interesting point, you know, many people when they reach out, certainly to us for help, and I guess for you as well, that part of their goal is to try and fix the relationships and how can we stay together? That’s, that’s how many people come to us. And it’s, it’s an interesting one, because, you know, many people do obviously turn things around, but not everyone. And there’s this idea in our culture, certainly here in the UK, and I’m guessing over there as well, is that, you know, a successful relationship is based on sticking together, you know, we’ve been together 20 years, now, we’ve been together for 30 years, we’ve been together for 35. We’re happy for any of that time, or don’t worry about that, and then a week, but we’ve been together, we stayed together, we stick this out. And what you’re saying is your personal experience kind of demonstrated that that wasn’t necessarily the case.
Elizabeth Franz
Yeah, and I think that’s, you know, I think society has those measures. Because we live in a capitalist societies, people who are unhappy in marriage, they spend a lot more money to try to like fill the void of all their needs being unmet. But a couple who is working on figuring out how to meet each other’s needs, that as a couple that can maybe stay together. And then a couple who says, You know what, we’re just not able to meet each other’s needs, we need to find the way to meet these needs elsewhere. What I appreciate about the mediation process is we say either route is okay and valid. They’re both we’re both are open to both of those things. I think, you know, if you’re in a divorce attorney, or divorce mediation, you’re getting divorced, it’s too late. But if you’re going to mediation versus going to like couples counseling, or going to the courts, were actually open to whatever path emerges. And oftentimes, people when they finally hear each other, they finally understand, and they finally have a chance to say, Oh, these were my needs all along. They might want to change midcourse and see No, I actually don’t want to see you anymore. Actually, you know what, maybe I do want to stay together actually know what now I know you can’t meet them, I want to end it. And Mediation allows that flexibility to go in any of those directions with no judgment. Versus I think other places, people who aren’t trained as third party neutrals tend to kind of impose well, we need to do this deeper psychological work, and why don’t you try to stay together, or Okay, since you’re already here, it sounds like you’re done. And you want to separate. And if you have a court case, and you’re doing all this, it’s very hard to turn that ship around, versus at mediation, all the paths are open to you. And so you can come in, and maybe you’ll get an outcome, you didn’t expect that that outcome will be aligned with what your needs are and what you value and how you’re feeling. And it won’t be an outside person imposing what I think your relationship needs. It’ll be really from you. What happens,
Matt
I guess makes sense. Thanks for clarifying that. And I wanted to ask as well regarding, like, meeting needs or meeting partner’s needs? Do you ever come across a situation where there’s a line between sort of how much am I willing to change myself, in order to support my partner to meet his or her needs? Versus No, this is me, I just need to be true to myself, and acknowledge that I’m just not going to be able to meet those needs. How do you? Have you ever come across that? And if so you know how to work around?
Elizabeth Franz
Yeah, I’ve come across that for sure. And I work with them the same way I work with people when they can meet the needs, which is just reflected back to them so they can hear it. And really, so they both can hear it. And then we capture all their ideas. So what are your ideas to get these needs met and and part of how we know for sure, if it’s something someone is capable of doing or not, is every part of our process is consensual. So we have an accepting consensual and collaborative process. And the consent piece is you have to opt in to every part of the process. And you have to opt in to every idea. And if you decide that you want to make a plan, you have to opt into every part of that plan. And so that that is unique as well. I think people are often rushed into agreement or like let’s just do this plan. And mediators. We really slow the process down enough to check in and say is this something you really want to do and so that that does two things. It makes sure that people consent that they really feel like it’s possible for them to do that. It’s not pie possible, it doesn’t end up in their plan. And the second thing it does is if you do end up deciding you want to plan, you can be very competent, the mediators are very confident that you will follow through on that plan, because it’s something you both wanted. It’s something you both consented to, we checked in multiple times. And so mediation doesn’t require state violence to enforce our plans, right. So if a judge says, you’re going to do this, you do it because you could go to jail. You do it, because there’s police that will come after you, if you don’t do it. In mediation, we don’t say this is what you’re going to do, we asked you, what do you want to do, because it’s really what you want to do. Because it’s something you both consent to, because it’s something you’ve both confirmed, it’s possible for you to do, we don’t have to reinforce it, we know and trust you to follow through on it. And we’ve know and trust you, people should adjust it. Because the other nice thing about mediating, by the time you’ve finished the process, you’ve been immersed in this language of collaboration, you leave with that language, you leave with those skills, you understand what the process is, and so we often don’t see repeat clients.
Matt
I see, that’s interesting to know, it’s gonna come on to that point. And some, I’m really fascinated about that area, you know, many people, when they come to us, you know, for support, they, they’re also struggling to have those difficult conversations or important conversations. And it’s like, Well, why do we seem to be going around in circles? Why are we not having a constructive conversation here. And you know, what we do is sort of help people understand what the barriers of blockages are, to them, having those conversations so that they can have them. I guess I wanted to ask you, the reason I raised that is I want to ask you, how do you make sure you get that skills transfer? You know, how do you make sure you don’t just make people like dependent on, you know, every difficult conversation, I need to go and see Elizabeth or
Elizabeth Franz
Well, repetition, they hear me reflect and ask questions. And that’s all I’m doing for multiple two hour sessions at a time, sort of like, you know, if you go to Spain, you’re gonna pick up some Spanish, you know, like, it’s gonna happen, because you’re gonna hear it over and over and over again, you’re in an environment totally immersed. You’re in a collaborative environment, every part of how you mediate the process, all the behavior, everything that mediator says, is modeling, good collaboration. And so people tend to pick it up. My favorite part is when I’m meeting with people for multiple sessions, and they start asking their own questions, they start asking each other questions, they don’t need me to ask them anymore. And I just sort of sit there and continue to take my notes. I like it when people start seeing their own reflection. So people, when they hear over and over again, whoa, honesty is really important to me. They kept saying, You’re lying, I can’t trust you. You never tell me what really happened, right? They they’re saying all these different things. But when I give them the word honesty, all of a sudden, they’re like, can you be honest with me, I’m honest with you, I always tell you the truth, I’m open with you. I’m transparent. Like I give them those words, and they start using them. It’s because they’re finally getting what they’re feeling and needing they’re finally given word for it, they’re finally given the language, and they start using it, and they don’t really need me to keep repeating it to them by the end. So that’s how it is, is really that repetition and, and being very, very disciplined about listening for justice, feelings, values, and topics, and letting all the details and all the judgment and all the like, jabbing at each other, kind of just letting that go and saying, you know, that will decompose on its own, I’m not going to fight it. I’m not gonna say don’t do that. Right. I’m gonna say, okay, all of that is good. And well. And if there are feelings and values and topics in there, I will capture them. And then I’m just going to only give you those things. And they probably get reflected, you know, depending on how much they talk, depending on how long they mediate 50 6070 times. And when you hear it over, and over and over and over again, it really sinks in and mediators, we’re trying all different words, right? Maybe honesty, isn’t it? Maybe it’s transparency, maybe it’s loyalty? We’re trying all these words, and we’re experimenting? Is it this? Is it this is it this. And eventually participants get to that place where they can communicate it, they see their words, and they’re able to express those. And so that’s how they learn is what we’re giving them the language we’re loose handing it to them. And then they’re deciding if that language accurately captures what they’re asking for.
Matt
See, makes sense a little bit. So you’re, you’re kind of leading the way by being neutral and reflecting back and not getting caught in, you know, the game of blaming or whatever. And eventually, they sort of see it enough times that it sinks in on some level at least. That’s yeah, that’s the goal. So
Elizabeth Franz
and they get attention and rewarded when they say those things, right when they’re when they’re on the cusp of a need. Whether it’s calling someone a name or whatever the reward is you get to be heard and seen. And you finally get the words for what you’ve been feeling and what you’ve been trying to Express, instead of sort of what society does, which is rewards the finger wagging the person who’s like, you’re bad, you’re humiliating, you’re abusive, right? That person gets victim status, we all back that person up, right. And I’m not saying we shouldn’t do that. But it sort of rewards this behavior of judging and putting someone else down and creating a, my team, your team, good guy, bad guy situation. And a mediation, mediators do not respond to that at all. So they’re getting no reward. It’s very much like, I think it’s operant conditioning, or classical conditioning, I always forget which one it is in psychology. But we’re saying, We know your brain is going to respond to rewards. So we’re going to reward you, when you’re talking about your needs are going to give you a feeling of value a topic, we’re going to capture your ideas, good job, if you came up with an idea for something to do to meet your needs. And then all this other stuff, we won’t punish you, we just won’t reward you, he just won’t get attention. And then because of the way the brain works, they’ll keep doing the stuff that gets them that reward. And we keep the mediation long enough that they learn that new pattern. And then the other stuff, they just kind of forget about it decomposes things that are incompatible with our needs, they’ll decompose, you don’t have to fight them, you just let them go.
Matt
Okay, makes sense. I love that. And what would you say are the most common situations or challenges that someone might be having or considering where mediation will be something to consider?
Elizabeth Franz
So it’s in every movie, I ruin movies from my partner now, where I’m like, if they had just communicated, there will be no story here. And he’s like, okay, but it’s a movie Elizabeth. And I’m like, but if they had just talked directly to that person, and told them about this, we would not have this whole ridiculous. And, and that’s also in real life, right? There’s plenty of times where if we had just said what we needed, we just said, You know what, I need you to tell the truth. We wouldn’t be taking the hit of constant lies over and over and over again, right? And if we were taking that hit, we could say, well, I’ve asked for it, and you haven’t given me what I’ve asked for, and maybe you can’t give me what I asked for it. And so maybe this isn’t the place to be, right. And I think, you know, those situations come up a lot. Because culturally, there’s a sort of, I think it’s very much like from the Puritans, this thing, like, you can’t have what you want, you can’t have pleasure, you have to suffer in order for it to be worthwhile. And I think what we’re trying to say is, okay, we can’t limit your suffering, what we can do is open up to the possibility that maybe you can get what you want. Maybe if you ask for it, if this is something you need, then what’s wrong with having it, right. And I think that’s maybe countercultural. There’s a lot of like, shame around pleasure and chasing your desires, but like there needs all of those things signal needs. And a person whose needs are met is a person who’s going to humiliate somebody, or call someone a name or throw a tantrum, like, we’re just older babies, you know, and, and if we’re not getting what we need, we’re gonna cry. And I think instead of seeing those cries as negative things and saying, Well, you’re a bad person, because you have these needs, or how dare you throw a tantrum? Or how dare you throw a fit? It’s more like, well, asking a question, what, what’s going on? What do we need? What are we feeling? What’s important to you? What are what, you know, what is this about? What’s the topic here, and then finding ways to meet everyone’s needs. So that’s the other sort of countercultural thing is, there’s a lot of win lose, like this idea that if I get what I want, that means you’re not getting what you want. And mediation is trying to shift that into a both and mindset instead of either or you can have what you want, and I can have what I want, we both can get what we want. We’re looking for Win Win solutions, we’re trying to meet everybody’s needs. Instead of saying, you’re the bad guy, I’m the good guy. So I’m the only one who gets what I want. And it’s at your expense. We see that setup in all our stories and our culture and our systems. And a mediation may be the first place that people experience this both and mentality, you can both have cleanliness in that home you share together, and flexibility around when that cleanliness happens and how it happens. You can have both those things, you can have both a plan, and spontaneity. And we’re saying all of those things are possible. And oftentimes, mediation is the first place where people are invited into thinking about how we can get all our needs met. And that’s why our process is designed the way it is. mediator behavior is designed the way it is what we say in our language is designed the way it is is to get us to meet everybody’s needs and find those Win Win solutions.
Matt
I see. Make sense? I love that. Absolutely. You say as you say a lot of our culture is set up in a an adversarial competition, isn’t it and the courts would be a great example of that where, you know, the judge comes down on one side or the other. And someone kind of goes away smiling, the other goes away sort of not very happy to say the least. And you’re saying is that that isn’t the only way there is a an option of working together to get to something that works for both parties. Is that Is that a fair point?
Elizabeth Franz
Yes, and it ends and it’s complete what everyone’s needs are met. If one person doesn’t get what they need, they’ll come back and try to get it right. That’s why you can appeal your court case, you can keep going back. Because it’s not over until everyone’s needs are met. It’s not complete, and mediation is able to get us to that completion, get us to meet all our needs, and then it’s actually resolved.
Matt
Fantastic. That’s great to hear. Thank you. As I say, Are there any situations when you would say that mediation might not be the right approach for what people would need? What what what would those situations be? If any?
Elizabeth Franz
Yes, so I think as humans, we’d have a tendency to say, if I have a hammer, that means every problem is a nail. And I’m a mediator and I fully accept that not everything is appropriate for mediation, we screen for domestic violence, we screen for, you know, if there would be a benefit to protecting your rights by going to court. And we like to partner with the courts and say, you know, what, why don’t we have the courts figure out what you’re legally entitled to, and then we can figure out everything else, because the courts don’t have precedent for those day to day things that matter to people. When somebody feels like they can’t speak for themselves for their sphere of retaliation, that’s not appropriate for mediation. So sometimes two people or two or more people, it’s not right for them, because we’re we’re playing into we’re kind of enabling a power dynamic that could be damaging. But if both participants agree, and they say, No, I want to mediate, I always lean on the side of believing them, you know, who am I to decide if it’s appropriate for them or not. But I really draw the line where there’s where they’re unsafe. So that’s why again, we screen for that. We screened for mental health we screened for if there’s a risk of suicide, we screened for domestic violence. Those are the types of things that maybe would be inappropriate for mediation, and then we offer other services, right, maybe it doesn’t make sense for you to talk to that person directly mediation, so we’ll do sort of a shuttle conference where you’re in separate rooms, and we’ll talk to both of you right, that that’s a different process for us. And then, you know, if we can’t serve you, then we’ll send you a referral to like an attorney or a mental health professional, because we’re not necessarily equipped to do all of those things. And all of that to say what it comes down to is as much as screening I can do, I really trust my participants, if they’re like, you know, yeah, I understand that he’s intimidating, and I’m scared of him, and there’s something going on, I want to talk to him, I want, I want time for him to hear me, I need to talk to that person, we hold space for that as long as the other person he or she agrees, right. If they both consent to it, we’ll go and then if at any point it feels unsafe, we’ll end the mediation, I think that’s part of the benefit of having an online now is a lot of the safety concerns that we used to have when we mediated in person are not that like nothing happens, mediation can punch me in the face on Zoom. So I’m not worried about having to like, stop something from happening physically, because on Zoom, it’s just not physically possible. So I just find that especially women, younger women tend to feel safer and appreciate having virtual space. Because there’s that bodily safety is not an issue in a virtual space.
Matt
Makes a lot of sense. But then also backs up really why you as you were saying earlier to before the this conversation that you you can offer services to people really anywhere in the world. Is that Is that right? And? And also, are there any issues around that like because of different legal systems or anything that would need to be aware of?
Elizabeth Franz
That’s a good question. So the courts and legal system have jurisdiction. And that’s something they’ve inherited from our colonial past, right, these borders create jurisdictions, you only have power over the people around you. And those reason for that, right, we didn’t have the internet when that system was designed. So now that we have the internet, and now that we have things like mediation, where we’re not using state violence, to force our ideas on the people, the way that the courts would need they, I need my army, I need my police force that right here in my community, mediators have the freedom to mediate anywhere and across any jurisdiction. So the benefit of that is, you really get a neutral person, I think there’s a there’s this counterintuitive idea that, you know, all I want a mediator in my community or someone who looks like me, and actually, you want a mediator who is going to be neutral, and who isn’t going to be impacted by what neighborhood you’re from, who doesn’t know anybody, you know, because you’re able to be the most candid in those situations. We keep it confidential. So I actually love that I have, you know, mediators all over the country. And so if I’m working with a group in Colorado, I’ll bring in maybe I’ll bring in mediators from Maryland, because they’re not going to tell anyone, they don’t know anybody. They don’t have any bias. So like when I hear I’m from Colfax, I have connotations of that, that st has a connotation in my, in my community or how I grew up, I had a connotation. But if someone in Maryland hears that it means nothing to them. There’s no judgment. And so sometimes it’s actually better to mediate with people outside your community to ship your conflict across the pond, because you feel safer. And there’s more of a buffer between this conversation and what happens in it, and your life and the people and I’m not going to run into you in the grocery store. If I’m not in your community, and I’m not going to have any sort of ulterior motives, because I’m in community, I might know somebody you know, you can really trust that it’s really third party neutral when you do this sort of cross jurisdictional, have mediators outside of your community?
Matt
Yeah, that makes sense. So that’s great to hear. And I mean, for the benefit of people listening who are maybe thinking this is something I want to explore, find out more about, how can people get in touch with you?
Elizabeth Franz
That’s great. So we’d love to connect with you. We have our website, humans, mediate.com, that’s humans with a Z. And you can get on my Calendly, we have a 15 minute, no strings attached zoom call just to connect, we love to talk to people who are interested in supporting mediation, interested in receiving mediation, interested in becoming mediators, we’re help and we’re happy to connect to have any conversation that you want to have in that 15 minutes.
Matt
Fantastic. That’s great to hear this book. And we’ll include the link to your website in the show notes for the show. So people can pick that up from now, just in case you didn’t get a chance to write that down. But yeah, I just wanna say big thank you. For me, it’s been really interesting conversation. And I love the sort of interface or similarities really, between the work with you and also the different skills that we bring to the table. So any final thoughts or any final points you wanted to share with us?
Elizabeth Franz
I want everyone to know that they understand their relationship better than anybody else. And so it’s your relationship. It’s your life, it’s your experience. Trust that you know what you need. And if, if somebody tries to tell you otherwise, I know better than you, I think you should do this or that you are well within your rights to disagree with them and not take that advice. If it doesn’t make sense to you because you’re the expert. So I hope people feel empowered in their lived experience. And I hope that they can trust themselves to make the best decisions for themselves because they’re really the best people to do that.
